Petar Čekerevac | The Hanseatic League in the Cloud

Timothy Allen: Introduce yourself and give me a bit of a lowdown on how you ended up in this weird world that we're all in here.

Petar Čekerevac: It's not straightforward, I would say. I come from Serbia, where I grew up, though I have lived in other countries. The whole story about me and the free cities, charter cities and special zones space started with me being very interested in, and passionate about, ideas of freedom and libertarian ideas, really since I can remember talking about politics.

Petar Čekerevac: I remember talking to my friend from high school and saying that the only ethics I have towards other people is: do what you want, as long as you're not preventing anybody else from doing what they want in their life. That was back in high school. Maybe I've honed that a little bit, but it's very succinct. It's a short way of defining the philosophy of individual freedom and free markets.

Petar Čekerevac: I got more into that in college when I read Robert Nozick, Milton Friedman and several other authors. Eventually, I heard from a friend that some people were setting up this libertarian organisation called the Libertarian Club, and I joined them for one of the meetings. We became friends, and we all had a big vision because we were frustrated with how politics worked in Serbia at that time.

Petar Čekerevac: For context, Serbia had just come out of the 1990s, the three wars and the dictatorship, and had started transforming itself towards a more democratic society and a more free-market-based economy, with regular elections, more rule of law and things like that. But already we were feeling that the transition was much slower than we would like to see. There were still a lot of issues with basic freedoms for a lot of people, a lot of infringements on social freedom.

Petar Čekerevac: At the same time, half of our political conversation in the country was basically centre-left, and the other half was nationalist right. We did not feel that those perspectives would produce a solution for moving the country forward. We were researching all these libertarian ideas, and we thought that would be the third way and the right path for society. But we felt that we were the only ones actually thinking that.

Petar Čekerevac: So we said, "We obviously need policy change in the country, but before that, there has to be a cultural change." There has to be a change upstream of daily politics before you see a change in a certain policy in the country. That's why we started doing a lot of educational programmes for young people, high-school and university students. We eventually ended up training hundreds of them. Most of our alumni became very successful in the things they do. Almost all of them, probably over 90%, said that our programmes fundamentally impacted the way they see politics, the economy and society. Whatever that meant to them, it was a fundamental impact.

Petar Čekerevac: From that, we started doing more public policy. We were able to influence certain taxes, to reverse increases in taxation. We contributed indirectly, in some ways, to changes in the labour code and insolvency laws, and several other things, including local regulations, to make the country more free-market. We eventually ended up building a media outlet that became really influential for a few years in the public policy debate and the conversation about our political culture.

Petar Čekerevac: Then I moved on to do other things, more internationally and more connected to my interest in technology and how it impacts society. Through all these years, something I pursued from day one in the organisation was fundraising: getting money so we could do what we do, thinking about risks and opportunities, and the strategic positioning of the organisation. That was upstream of our marketing, our fundraising and our work in general.

Timothy Allen: Was that the media company you were talking about?

Petar Čekerevac: The media company was basically part of the non-profit.

Timothy Allen: What was the non-profit?

Petar Čekerevac: It was called the Libertarian Club, Libek. I travelled a lot around the world, building partnerships with international supporters and strategic partners, and also within Serbia. But I always had parallel interests. Whenever I do something, I always do something else below the surface.

Petar Čekerevac: Since college, I was interested in alternative communities and alternative ways of living, and that led me to alternative governance systems. I discovered the Free State Project in New Hampshire on the internet. I was fascinated by it, even though it was a very niche, very small thing. Yes, they had about 15,000 people sign the pledge, but at that time, maybe only 50 or 100 people had actually moved to New Hampshire.

Petar Čekerevac: That's how I discovered Honduras, back in the Paul Romer days. It started making international headlines. I got interested in that because it reminded me of Singapore and Hong Kong, and what China did to transform the country. I had no relationship to Honduras, but I knew it was a dangerous, poor place, and this could make it less dangerous and less poor. It was revolutionary. I like these bold ideas that are transformative, so I followed that. That was the start of my interest.

Petar Čekerevac: Then I became friends with people who eventually ended up starting Próspera and NeWay Capital, the company that was initially the initiator of Próspera. One of the big moments in that history was going with the founders of Próspera, but also with some other friends, to Crete, to the Startup Societies Conference in 2016. It was quite an interesting mix of people. I followed that up by attending the Startup Societies Conference in Washington, DC, I think in 2018, at George Mason.

Petar Čekerevac: I finally visited Próspera in 2024 during the Vitalia event, because I also have a strong interest in longevity. I think most of the stuff I do is actually to help longevity, but I'm not a bioscientist or an entrepreneur in that field. I'm doing things that help people who are. I think that by creating zones and environments where they can innovate, do their R&D, conduct clinical trials, and save money and time compared to other jurisdictions, we can accelerate progress in that field.

Petar Čekerevac: I'm doing what I do in this space to help, as the end goal, the ultimate technology, which I think is longevity. Because once we figure that out, we have so much more time to do everything else.

Timothy Allen: Literally, you've got as long as you want. Earlier on in the dome, you were talking about the evolution of zones and the strategy for places like Próspera. We should mention that we're here for a conference in Próspera. You've lived here before, right?

Petar Čekerevac: Yes. I lived here for two months back in 2024. I was here for an event called Vitalia, which brought together several hundred crypto, AI, longevity and governance innovation people to live together for two months. During that time, we had several conferences, but also a lot of grassroots, bottom-up, community-organised events pretty much every day, from a biohacker house to different crypto meet-ups and scuba diving.

Petar Čekerevac: It was a temporary pop-up city experience here in Próspera. Then I returned in 2025 for a similar event called the Infinita City Summit, which was also a co-living experience for that audience.

Timothy Allen: Can I ask something about that? I went to Zuzalu a number of years ago. I can't remember when that was. That was 2023, right? That was my first, and I should say last, experience of a pop-up city. I remember thinking at the time, "This is a bit wishy-washy. This is a bit out there. Is this really good? Is this really achieving anything?"

Timothy Allen: But I think I've grown into the idea in the years since. Not that I've been back to one, but when you mentioned that you came here for two months, and now, albeit I've spent a night here, already I'm seeing people in the lift, meeting people in the restaurant and the café. Everywhere you go here in Próspera, you meet people, especially when there's an event on like this. I believe it now. I believe those pop-up events, where everyone comes for a couple of months, could be extremely productive. Is that your experience of them?

Petar Čekerevac: I think both are true. There is a lot of wishful thinking, dreaming and exploring at those events, and there are also a lot of serious conversations. I think both are actually important, but it's up to every participant to see what works best for them.

Petar Čekerevac: It's a really intense experience because everybody either is doing a lot of things or wants to do a lot of things. I had a very popular post on X about my first experience in Próspera at a pop-up city.

Timothy Allen: Was it positive?

Petar Čekerevac: Yes, it was very positive. One of the things I said was that every conversation feels like the start of a startup. There are so many of these conversations. You go through the hallway, and sometimes it takes you an hour because everybody wants to talk to everybody about all kinds of things. There were literally conversations where people divided up roles within 15 minutes to test something. It got tested, and they abandoned it in a day, but they tested it.

Petar Čekerevac: One of my posts said, "This must be what very early Silicon Valley felt like," because people were going around meeting each other, discussing these ideas and getting to work immediately. Somebody who knows what it was like, or was present at the time in those circles, responded with something along the lines of, "Yes, this is kind of what it felt like."

Petar Čekerevac: That whole year, 2024, after Zuzalu, was full of pop-up cities around the world. Vitalia was the first one. After that, I think people spent a lot of money and time doing that for the rest of the year. Then 2025 was a bit easier because, I guess, there was some fatigue. But a lot of stuff came out of it if you look at it. I think those events are upstream of technology, even upstream of politics. They're in the domain of culture, even individual psychological development. That's upstream of everything.

Petar Čekerevac: If you look at what happened in the year after, here in Próspera, Infinita was created. Infinita raised money to build a longevity hub here. It attracted, I think, around 40 startups doing various things related to longevity. Some are doing other things, but those startups then raised another $20 million from leading Silicon Valley investors here in Próspera.

Petar Čekerevac: Tim Draper visited, and Adam Draper visited. At Vitalia, we also had Bryan Johnson, Naval Ravikant and Balaji. They were actually here at the same time. It was a very high-signal environment. You go to a restaurant, and across the pool there's Naval Ravikant sitting there, and you can approach him and talk to him. They were here for a few days, not the full two months, but that was a very good opportunity to test your ideas and learn from some of the people who have done a lot of things and have the capacity to help you.

Timothy Allen: When those kinds of guys come, how invested in the ideas do you think they are personally? I'm interested in your experience of when those big Silicon Valley names come. Balaji is different, I think, because he's the network state guy, but the other guys you mentioned are adjacent to the governance side of things. They're either Bitcoin, crypto or longevity, or just VCs wanting to invest some money somewhere.

Timothy Allen: How much are they actually into the idea of the free city, the zone happening? And how much is it just, "Well, this is the latest thing. Everyone's getting excited about this. Let's poke our noses in and see if we want to put some money in"?

Petar Čekerevac: I think everybody's different. I don't know, but I would say that the three I mentioned specifically are very genuinely interested. I don't know them that well. I've talked to some of them, but I don't speak for them. If you look at what they do, they have been very loud champions for these ideas. They have invested their money in these ideas. They're not people who, I imagine, travel to every event in the world. I think they're very picky about where they go and how they use their time. They spent a few days here, so that's a commitment.

Petar Čekerevac: We also know Bryan Johnson came here and took the gene therapy from Minicircle. I think that shows that they, in particular, are genuinely supportive of this space. That support came at a time when it was really needed. We know that some of them, and Peter Thiel, for example, supported Patri Friedman in Pronomos Capital.

Petar Čekerevac: I think there is genuine interest, and they see this as a new frontier. I think that's their job. Some of them built their wealth by looking at where the next big thing is. The things they supported that way ended up being useful. They supported the Bitcoin and crypto industry, which is immensely useful for so many people. I think some of them are now doing that with longevity, special jurisdictions and, for example, the privacy trend. They're all things that need support and are very important in the time we live in. Credit to them for that.

Timothy Allen: What I wonder sometimes is, we all think this is the beginning of a massive change, don't we? I don't know about you, but I certainly do. Being involved in all these ideas and places, I see it as the very beginning of a very long-term change: cultural change, physical change, borders changing, all this kind of stuff.

Timothy Allen: I wonder whether people outside our groups get it in the same way. Those kinds of guys, do they really think the same way we do? Do they really think that one day there might be 20,000 Prósperas all over the world, all competing for your business and your citizenship, or whatever that is?

Petar Čekerevac: I don't know. Currently, at this event in Próspera, we have about 100 people, and I think they will differ vastly in how they see the future of the free cities and special jurisdictions space. The same goes for any human involved in the space, regardless of whether they're a startup guy, an investor, a thought leader or an academic. They will have different perspectives on it.

Petar Čekerevac: But the truth is that nobody can predict this, because it doesn't depend on us. We're humans doing what we can to the best of our ability, but there are factors outside any individual's control. Technology is a factor, climate is a factor, geography is a factor. Many times, these factors have changed the course of history, suddenly or slowly, but they certainly affected it.

Petar Čekerevac: We're building and adapting, but we don't know what this is going to look like. Maybe there's going to be only one Próspera, maybe 20, maybe 20,000. We don't know. We certainly know from history that the way people organise and live has changed from nomadic to more stationary, to city-states, nation-states and empires, and back and forth. Anything is possible.

Petar Čekerevac: I think it's less important to try to imagine what it looks like. The more important thing is to have a binding vision that you strive towards: to improve this market of living together, as Titus Gebel says, and to figure out better ways to coordinate. How do we reconcile the urge for control, which is typical of centralised governments and part of human nature, with the urge to enjoy freedom and prosperity, which is often on the opposite side of that urge to control?

Petar Čekerevac: If you have too much control, like a command economy, you can do very little in other areas. If you have a lot of freedom, you have bad things that come with it, but you also have a lot of exponential good things. I think we have to see that North Star, the big goal, and adapt on the way. We should not imagine a utopia where we live like kings in a castle, a city-state or a nation-state.

Petar Čekerevac: Communities and cities are coordination venues, but they're also products of human coordination. That also depends on geography. A hundred people living on a Caribbean island will function differently from a hundred people living on a Swiss mountain. We have to be humble about the vision in that sense, and then very bold in our attempts to achieve these underlying goals.

Timothy Allen: Going back to what you were saying this morning, before we started this podcast, about strategies for creating free cities, you were talking about layers. I found that quite interesting. Can you expand on that a little bit?

Petar Čekerevac: The layers terminology is borrowed from software engineering, but really from crypto ecosystems. We categorised and split what we do here in the free cities and special jurisdictions space into different layers that we need to address if we're to be successful.

Petar Čekerevac: Layer zero is usually in the domain of sovereign nation-states. That's the domain of enabling frameworks at the highest level of government: constitutional changes, special laws and things that only nation-states can do to enable special jurisdictions, special zones or charter cities to be built.

Petar Čekerevac: Layer one is the special jurisdictions themselves that use these frameworks, like Próspera using Honduras's ZEDE framework to build Próspera. These are the governance providers, the charter cities.

Petar Čekerevac: Then you have layer two: the hubs and communities that leverage the jurisdiction, that use it to do what they do. For example, Infinita in Próspera is doing that for longevity and biotech. Bitcoin District in Próspera is doing that for Bitcoiners: community, real estate and maybe, in the future, a venture fund or something. You can imagine similar communities. I don't like to call them guilds, but it's usually a cluster, an economic cluster or a community that's bringing people into the zone while focusing on a specific field.

Petar Čekerevac: Then there's what we call the app layer, or layer three. Those are the individual businesses and companies using these hubs, which use these jurisdictions, which use the enabling frameworks of the nation-state, to be better and more efficient at what they do. It could be, for example, a gene therapy company that can do clinical trials faster and get its treatment to market much faster than in a legacy system.

Timothy Allen: Does that mean, according to you at least, that you have to start at the sovereign level? I think I heard Patri Friedman this morning say roughly the same thing. He was talking about what he'd learnt over the last 20 years of working in these arenas, and he was saying, "Look, don't bother unless you've got an agreement, even a constitutional agreement." What's your opinion on that? Do you have to start at layer zero, or can you work from other layers?

Petar Čekerevac: I would trust Patri because he has so much experience. He has a bird's-eye view of these things and has done this for over 20 years, I think. When he says that, I trust him.

Petar Čekerevac: It's probably true that if you're doing anything of this scope, you have to, because the government will shut you down. You cannot just come to a piece of land and build a special jurisdiction where you use the laws of Switzerland or Singapore. They're not going to let you do that. Maybe if you're a heavily armed group of individuals, and the country is extremely incapable of countering that for some reason. But what makes them sovereign is their ability to decide and the leverage they have.

Petar Čekerevac: So yes, probably. But maybe it helps if you have a strong community and everything else ready to go. It will probably put you in a better negotiating position, I guess.

Timothy Allen: Talk to me about the difference you've noticed over the years here, between when you lived here before and now. What are the main changes occurring? Along with that, are there any new ideas you see bubbling out of what people are learning as things get built, as actual structures start getting created? I often find those are the best learning experiences as well.

Petar Čekerevac: There are the obvious visual, physical ones. The building we're currently in was under construction when I first visited. We were given a tour, but it was still very early. Last year, I actually lived in this building for a month, and this year we're doing a podcast here. That has changed, for example. Over the past two years, several other real estate projects have been approved.

Petar Čekerevac: Another visual thing I've noticed is that I went to one of the restaurants here the other day, at a random point in the day, and it was pretty full. It wasn't only people from the event. There were some tourists there. In the past two years, I would usually go there and, if it wasn't a speaker dinner or something organised, it would be pretty empty. Now it was more full than empty. I noticed groups going around, and it just looks like there are more people physically present here. I don't have the impression that it's only people from the event. It's other people as well.

Petar Čekerevac: Statistically, I don't know the exact numbers, but there's been significant growth in the number of e-residents and companies registered in Próspera. The road giving access to the Beta District, the less developed part of Próspera, is now getting built. That was a big hurdle in the past few years, and now I see they're expanding the road. Nomad Village has a "Coming soon" sign. There are signals and an impression, at first sight, that some things are moving forward.

Petar Čekerevac: In terms of what has been learnt, I think the context has changed. The political climate in the country is more favourable now than in the past few years, because of the hostile government that was in place until just a few months ago. With that changing, you see more people coming and exploring opportunities here. In recent months, several big YouTube channels and influencers have visited and done reports.

Petar Čekerevac: There's probably a bit of a flywheel between the projects now. The Zuzalu crowd is doing pop-ups, and there's the Network School in Singapore. People go from one place to another, and ideas get cross-pollinated. People hear about Próspera while they're in the Network School, or hear about the Network School when they're in Próspera. I think there's a bit of a feedback loop in these things. But for very specific technical things about what Próspera has learnt, it's probably best to talk to somebody from Próspera.

Petar Čekerevac: You can feel it. I'm an adviser to Bitcoin District in Próspera, and I know how much community-building [name unclear], who leads Bitcoin District, has done. Now we're probably going to have the first Bitcoin settlement, a real estate project in Próspera. That's moving forward.

Timothy Allen: Will that be residential?

Petar Čekerevac: Yes. We had this concept called Orangeville for residential real estate for Bitcoiners, and now I think we're getting closer to actually building it.

Timothy Allen: Orangeville. I like that. That's a good name. Very good.

Timothy Allen: What do you make of the different tribes, and I'll use that term loosely, that you find in the free cities, network states and startup cities space? It's taken me a few years to understand the differences between all these groups. I definitely come from the free cities side. They're bricks-and-mortar people, lawyers, a lot of them, very straight-down-the-line people.

Timothy Allen: The reason I mentioned Zuzalu earlier, and how I found it a bit wishy-washy, although I wouldn't necessarily say I do now, is because I get a bit of fatigue. You explained it brilliantly: everyone you speak to. There was a small welcoming party last night, and I went to that. I didn't have a conversation that didn't feel like there was some pressure to understand what this person was talking about. I just like going to parties, talking and having a good time. But at these kinds of places, it's like you say: it's so intense. Every conversation has significance, and I'm not that guy, really. I like talking about it in this context.

Timothy Allen: But you're saying that's what Silicon Valley was like when it first started, which would suggest that this is the beginning of something quite important. I already think it is. Talk to me about your view of the culture of this movement, because it is pretty diverse.

Petar Čekerevac: I think it shows that the need for stimulating, free environments is shared by different groups of people. I've been to the Free Cities conference in Prague, for example, and you see the difference in the audience. There are people interested in the same things, but they usually come from different business backgrounds, maybe different age groups and educational backgrounds.

Petar Čekerevac: The diversity you experience once you spend some time between the events, or just in this space, shows that this desire to live free and prosperous lives is shared by different people. The peculiarity of the audience here, or at Zuzalu, comes from the fact that most of those people come from very specific environments and have very specific interests. There are the crypto people, Bitcoin as well, and then biotech. It's very [unclear] science-heavy: maths, biology, chemistry. It's a different mindset.

Petar Čekerevac: They're also entrepreneurial in this space, and not only entrepreneurial. They jump at the opportunity to tackle some of humanity's biggest problems. How do we live long and healthy lives forever? How do we create better governance systems where we can be freer to do what we want, and won't waste time and money on bureaucracy?

Petar Čekerevac: Then there are non-technical people who come and say, "I just want to escape my oppressive environment back home," or, "My 60% tax," or something like that. They all share that. I'd add another layer: they all need each other. Not necessarily need, but they benefit from knowing each other.

Petar Čekerevac: One of the reasons I'm doing this event with Infinita, Próspera, the Startup Societies Foundation and Pronomos is that I like bringing together people who I think should know each other, but who aren't likely to cross paths in their everyday lives.

Petar Čekerevac: I didn't go to Zuzalu, although I was invited by Niklas, among others. I was somewhere else. It was in Montenegro, which would have been fairly close if I'd been in Serbia, but I had other travel. With Vitalia, Infinita and what we're doing here, I think there's big value in that because these people can benefit from different perspectives.

Petar Čekerevac: You found it a bit wishy-washy at the time. I think there's a lot of exploring there, and a lot of people who are inexperienced but enthusiastic, who may benefit from the guidance of somebody who built a mining company, or built a software company and sold it 10 years ago. They might benefit from knowing somebody who has actually talked to people in suits in the government.

Petar Čekerevac: When you put all these people together for a long enough period, some bonds and exchanges start happening that benefit everybody. If you look at how any city throughout history has worked, it had merchants, artists, politicians, philosophers and agricultural workers. You cannot base a community on a single type of person. Convening them together is like the seed of something that can eventually become a sustainable community.

Timothy Allen: When I attended Zuzalu, it was the first time I realised just how different I was from the general culture there. Ironically, I come from that culture. When I was younger, I was very much of that mindset: move fast and break things, anything's possible, quite idealistic. As I've got older, I've become much more of the other side: the ideas are important, but the buildings, the actual physical structures, are really important as well.

Timothy Allen: I agree with you that those two ends of the spectrum have to come together. I don't necessarily think they gel well together.

Petar Čekerevac: Maybe not for a long time, but over a drink?

Timothy Allen: I know. But you're right, they need to come together for more than just a drink. It really does need to happen. Listening to Patri this morning, I feel he straddles both worlds quite well, because he's very much from the Silicon Valley end. But when he was talking about what he'd learnt over time, he was very much like, "Network states are great, but the barrier to entry is so low, they don't really achieve a huge amount."

Timothy Allen: I don't know what you think about that, because that's my position. At one end, you have the network state idea: create it online and then build something with this mass of people. At the other end, it's more like, "Right, let's just build and attract people to come." The network state one is very much online people, Westerners, nomads, those kinds of people. The other one is building for locals, I feel. Going somewhere in a country that needs good cities or good places, building them, and then people will come because it's better than where they live.

Timothy Allen: I used to think they meet in the middle, and that's where stuff gets done. But actually, and this is probably me being a bit biased, I feel it leans a little bit more to the other end, not the network state side. The network state idea isn't as important as I maybe used to think. I don't know. What do you think?

Petar Čekerevac: Is it important as an idea, the network state as a concept?

Timothy Allen: Yes, because I thought they would meet in the middle. From one side, you have the network staters; from the other, you have the builders, the free city people. I thought they should meet in the middle somewhere. But I feel that somehow, with the network state idea, the barrier to entry is so low. You can enter just by signing something online. It's "Join my network state" as opposed to "Come and live in my city." Those would be the two ends of the spectrum.

Timothy Allen: Obviously, you can get people to commit to your network state very easily, but there's no proof of work, because all you have to do is sign up on a website. To actually achieve a startup society in the physical world is massive.

Timothy Allen: You were talking about the Free State Project earlier, arguably the most successful version of a network state, I suppose. I wouldn't call it a startup society. They did say to everyone online, "Sign here and pledge that you're going to move," and they have managed to move, I think, 10,000 people now. I spent two weeks there last year interviewing people, and it's been really successful.

Timothy Allen: I think people may have too high an expectation of what something like that might be able to achieve. But having been there, spoken to people and seen what's going on, it's been really successful as far as I'm concerned. It's just that people didn't understand what success actually meant, and also how long the success trajectory would take. I've forgotten where I'm going with this, but do they meet in the middle? How important is the network state idea?

Petar Čekerevac: I think it is important, but the expectations and time horizons for these ideas are different. Generally, when you release an idea or a technology into the wild, it takes its own course. I think that's the case here as well.

Petar Čekerevac: I see Balaji's network state concept as a directional white paper that presents this opportunity to escape the negative trends in the world today, but in a different way. I think there are two ways you can read it. One is him proposing something, and one is just acknowledging what's happening. When you read The Network State, it can be both. About 60% of the book isn't actually about the network state. It's an analysis of where the world is going. In the last 30 or 40% of the book, he delivers the vision and the concept.

Petar Čekerevac: There's definitely a lower barrier to entry, because joining a network state can sometimes be as simple as signing something. Building an actual city, or moving somewhere, sometimes with your family, requires a much bigger commitment. However, I think the network state is a layer that's relevant to the free cities industry and special jurisdictions, but it is a bit upstream. It's a social coordination layer.

Petar Čekerevac: Balaji also says, "Real estate last," but not never. That's a very important point. A network state, to be a network state according to his concept, should have a physical presence somewhere, and eventually recognition. But at this time, because it's very early in these things, I see the network state as a social coordination layer. It's like a backup layer for the world.

Petar Čekerevac: If you have permissionless finance through, for example, Bitcoin, permissionless contracts through Ethereum or smart contracts, and private, permissionless communication through open-source tools like Signal or similar, then you have everything in place to enable human coordination without the government's permission, at least at that layer. You can preserve your finances, your communication, freedom of speech and information.

Petar Čekerevac: Those are all layers that build the modern world. If you can preserve them outside the government's physical control, you can download them to a specific location later on. That physical location might be a legacy environment, but it could also be a free city that somebody builds in the meantime by just doing the physical, and it becomes a home for this. It's a cloud Hanseatic League, in a way.

Petar Čekerevac: The German free cities were actually a very loose alliance of cities to begin with. There was no document saying, "This is the constitution of the Hanseatic League." They were independent cities, but they were wealthy. They had knowledge, they were merchants, they had roads connecting them, and they eventually built power. Their physical presence in the world was manifested by their ability to convince, fight off or negotiate with emperors, and also to have outposts in different countries.

Petar Čekerevac: In London, they had the Steelyard, and that lasted for centuries. It was different, it was pre-internet, but they had financial power, social coordination and leverage through their ability to trade with others. Nobody could trade as well as them. That was partly due to geography and partly due to their wits.

Petar Čekerevac: If you can save your leverage in the cloud, you can talk to governments who need you. They might not need you for your money, but if you have a lot of very smart people who can solve some problem, that can also be the case. I think it's bargaining power for people who seek freedom. It's not necessarily mutually exclusive. It may not play out in terms of them meeting in the middle, but I think they're relevant to each other.

Timothy Allen: When you put it like that, it makes me think the network state idea is important, but it doesn't necessarily have to come first. It's an important part of the stack to have everyone connected in the cloud. I like that, "The Hanseatic League in the cloud." I've never heard that. Have you ever said that before?

Petar Čekerevac: I don't go on podcasts a lot. I might have said that on X or in private conversations. I don't think it's the first time I'm saying it, but maybe it was just a thought [unclear].

Timothy Allen: I like that. It did make me think that I was coming at it from the angle of, and this is how I think the network state works according to Balaji, you create the network state and then it manifests. But it doesn't necessarily have to happen like that. You can create a city and then offer the network state as a layer that allows people to connect in the cloud as well. It doesn't matter which way you come at it. You're saying, and I would probably agree, that it's an important part of the free cities stack.

Petar Čekerevac: Yes, I would see it like that. Like everything else, there are people who are more passionate about building a physical environment, and those more passionate about building tools for sustaining your freedom. It's not the same groups of people who are interested in this, as you said, but I think they benefit from each other. I'm open-minded as to where that goes because I know I cannot predict it.

Timothy Allen: I didn't actually ask you, and I'm not being rude here, but I know you're co-organising this event now. What's your business at the moment, and what's your work focus?

Petar Čekerevac: I do several things. Day to day, I spend most of my time helping a foundation from the US called Atlas Network. It's the biggest hub for advocates of individual freedom and free markets around the world. Atlas Network supports over 500 free-market think tanks around the world, in 100 countries. I'm a senior fellow.

Timothy Allen: I believe we had a project turned down by them. I think we put in a bid to make a film about free cities. We ended up making it anyway with private money. It was called Zones of Progress, I think. But they didn't like the idea.

Timothy Allen: I got the feeling, and you may be able to correct me here, that Atlas Network isn't massively into startup societies and free cities. At least, this was a few years ago. They don't think of that favourably, or it's not front and centre in the kind of stuff they're interested in.

Petar Čekerevac: We didn't do a lot of work in this space, but we did a very small sponsorship of the first Startup Societies Conference in 2024 that I spoke about. It was a smaller sponsorship than what you would need for a documentary.

Petar Čekerevac: Generally, if you go and speak to free-market people around the world, I don't think free cities are front and centre. People usually address topics such as tax, property rights and different regulations, which are also very important. There have been partner think tanks supported by Atlas Network who literally, with one reform, made life a lot freer and easier for tens of millions of people.

Petar Čekerevac: It's very competitive in terms of who grants are awarded to. The reasons why somebody gets accepted or rejected can vary. I don't think anybody hates the space.

Timothy Allen: No, I'm not saying that at all. I think I remember now. My overarching memory was that Atlas Network is less concerned about ideas and more concerned about projects that actually do something. It was quite an ideological idea. We wanted to create something that spreads the word about what this is, because it's a very early-stage idea.

Timothy Allen: It's been around for a long time, the Hanseatic League, but this new iteration is new, and people need a bit of time to ease into it, in my experience. I certainly did when I first heard about it, and I've gone through the full process of integrating the ideas. I know having a film is an easy way to digest it. I think that was it. Atlas Network isn't as excited about big ideas; they're more excited about, "Here's a project which will actually change this thing."

Timothy Allen: What's the most exciting thing you see currently in the free cities space?

Petar Čekerevac: I'm obviously not equally familiar with every project, and I'm probably heavily biased towards Próspera because I've been here so much. But I am excited about Próspera because, of all the projects we could name, the top 10, I think it's gone furthest and has the most experience. It's been through a lot, and now there's the next step, the next frontier for it. I'm excited to see where it goes, and I think it will benefit all the other projects.

Petar Čekerevac: Everybody doing something in the space now can go to Próspera, and they can tell them what they've done in the past 10 years: what to do and what not to do. The success of Próspera also increases the knowledge, the know-how, that can be shared with other projects. I'm excited about that from layer one.

Petar Čekerevac: Obviously, I'm super interested in longevity, so I'm excited about what Infinita is doing. I think Infinita is on a very good track. I've also been getting more and more questions about how to collaborate with people in Próspera from people who are outside, or who have never been here.

Petar Čekerevac: There are interesting things happening in the world that I'm less familiar with, but somewhat familiar with. There are countries where I wouldn't expect something like a special jurisdiction to happen that are now turning to it. I named Kazakhstan in my talk. It seems the city there has received a significant commitment of private funds. That project was tried probably over 10 years ago, and it didn't work. Now they're reviving it in a much bigger way, to the extent that it's become a national priority for the country.

Timothy Allen: Do you know why it didn't work before? Was it too early, or was it managed badly?

Petar Čekerevac: I think it was probably not the right time for it. It was probably too early to speak about management at that time. I'm not super familiar with it.

Timothy Allen: What you say about Próspera's success being important, I agree 100%. They beat the socialists as well, which was one of the final bosses of startup societies and free cities. Everyone knows the final boss is a socialist government, and they kind of beat them. I know they've just been voted out, but they were also in power for a while, while Próspera and Morazán kept going.

Timothy Allen: They scaled things back because there was a certain amount of uncertainty, but they didn't shut them down. They didn't come in and say, "You've got to stop doing what you do." Then they even started backtracking a little bit on how much they were going to shut them down. I think Próspera's success is massive because, as you say, you can point to it now.

Timothy Allen: Maybe the government in Kazakhstan, or the private companies in Kazakhstan that want to create these places, looked at this and went, "If they can do that, that's taken away a lot of the risk we thought might be there." I don't know how those people think. It certainly makes me think it's a far less risky proposition now because the main deterrent to shutting down a place like this is the legal framework, and it seemed to work really well with Próspera. It did its job. Who's to say that can't be repeated anywhere?

Petar Čekerevac: I don't know how much they, in particular, were inspired by Próspera. But if you look at the website of Alatau City, for example, you'll see words like "acceleration zones" and similar language that Zuzalu people would use, even though this is a national priority project, at a higher level in terms of decision-making. I found it interesting that not only the concept but also the language is shared between these projects, even though they come from different environments.

Petar Čekerevac: When I talk to businesspeople in different countries and tell them I've been to Próspera, some hear about it through me for the first time. They learn a little about it, and in one or two countries, I've heard people say, "Let's build it here. I know this person and this person. Maybe we can create a team and build something like that here."

Petar Čekerevac: Obviously, there are constraints. If you're in the EU, you're also bound by EU regulation. Even if you're not in the EU but are on the way to becoming a member, there's stuff that will prevent you from creating a Próspera there. But maybe there can be a version of something somewhere. I'm speaking about Europe in particular. It's probably easier in Latin America and places like that.

Petar Čekerevac: I know this first-hand: when people hear about this, one of the things they think about is, "How do we do this here?" I'm not the only person who speaks about Próspera. There are many countries and many people who come through here. Out of a hundred people who hear about Próspera, one goes, "I want to build it in my country." I've seen people here last year who come from Europe, saying, "I know this person in that country. I know this person." People think about this all the time. But it's a very hard thing to do.

Timothy Allen: You're telling me.

Petar Čekerevac: You know that better than I do.

Timothy Allen: Possibly. I think "hard" is possibly not the right word, because it just takes time. This is the thing: you can't have the startup mindset. It's a slow industry.

Petar Čekerevac: I've noticed that, because I like faster feedback. Sometimes, when I message or email people about projects like this, it's a lot slower. Then you can imagine if it's higher stakes, and you're going into parliament.

Timothy Allen: It can also fall apart after four or five years, which is really disheartening. You can put a lot of energy into a project and not get any feedback until three or four years later. Then it gets the go-ahead, something happens, and bang, it's gone. It's just evaporated. It's a tough business, and I don't think it necessarily suits the startup mindset.

Timothy Allen: The network state stuff does. With the biotech stuff, once you have a place, I can see that once somewhere like Próspera exists, the biotech space can move quite fast. It now understands, "This is where we can insert ourselves into this framework," and it works quite well. But if you look at Próspera's history, what is it, 10-plus years in the making? You're just at this point now where people are living here. I'm living here. You've lived here.

Petar Čekerevac: When I was telling people about Próspera for the first time, some didn't even think it would raise money. Now we're in Próspera doing all these things.

Timothy Allen: Petar, thanks for coming in and having a chat, and thanks for being part of this event. I'm very excited to be here, for the reason you said: there's a good group of people. I know a lot of them, and this is becoming a thing when you go to an event, knowing more and more people from very diverse backgrounds. It's fun to see all your friends in one place at the same time, but also loads of new people. We're heavy on the free city side, a bit lighter on the network state side, but I'm excited to meet more people.

Petar Čekerevac: I think that's a big part of all of this: keeping an open mind and seeing how you can connect with different types of people.

Timothy Allen: Thanks, Petar, and thanks for coming in. It's been really nice talking to you.

Petar Čekerevac: Nice talking to you.